Marscan’s Chart of TGID and RID Organization of TMR2

 Last updated April 29, 2015

This is not a list of individual talk group ID’s or unit/radio ID’s, and therefore may not be of interest to anyone who is not “into” the organizational structure of the system.    I imagine that only a few of you will be want to go through this whole thing.   I hope that you few enjoy it, and will share any insights you have.

Note: As of the last update just over 3000 individual radios and consoles had been detected via Pro96Com at my location near Halifax.   Approximately 475 talk groups had either been detected (or have been identified in lists, such as those in the VFD system, of which I have only actually detected a few).

Sources

I must emphasize that this “article” is based almost entirely on my own observations and analysis, with a few contributions from other scanner users, and as well it is based partially on fleetmap information published on-line by PSFC.  It is NOT based on insider tips or any other behind the scenes information from official sources.  

Level of Accuracy

While my language may sound definitive, keep in mind that this is unofficial information based on informed guesswork and therefore errors or misconceptions may be present, and these will be mine.   I hope that my inferences, speculations and guesswork are pretty much accurate, and they are based on what are perhaps my peculiar interests and lines of reasoning.  These come from 50+ years of trying to figure out things in radio, commencing as a teenager and continuing when I was an Electronic Warfare Officer many years ago in the navy listening for the Cold War Soviets!  I am presenting this in the spirit of sharing what I believe to be true, and I will leave it to you to either use it or not.  Please pass any thoughts along to me via ScanMaritimes pm or posting, or via email to me.  These observations are in a state of flux as more and more agencies come on board TMR2, and I will update as appropriate.

While I have done some listening with the radio id feature turned on, and this has been useful, a great deal of my information comes from the use of the Pro96Com trunking analysis program.  It is relatively easy to get a handle on what talk groups and radios exist, and how they relate to each other.   I am limited by the fact that I can only use one TMR2 site at a time, and I concentrate on Sackville, with some use of Geizers Hill as well.   A huge advantage in monitoring Sackville is that the Bell radio workshop (“the factory”) tests all the non-RCMP radios prior to them being distributed throughout the province, and generally the tested radios affiliate to the Sackville site. Having said this, I realize that there are other talk groups and other radios that remain unknown to me due to me monitoring these sites, and only since early March, and anything you can add from your area will be welcomed.

Introduction

In comparison to TMR1, talk group and radio identification numbers (TGID’s and RID/UID’s) in TMR2 are more highly organized.  Agencies or entities have been assigned ranges of numbers from which both TGID’s and UID’s are drawn.   For example EHS in Nova Scotia has been assigned the range 3000 to 4999.   All of their talk groups and all of their radios are numbered in that range.   This organizational system is thought to originate with PSFC, the driving force behind TMR2, but will presumably continue on to apply to Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick, due to the necessity to have no duplications in either TGID’s and UID’s.

• Agencies are assigned a range of numbers from which both TGID’s and UID’s are drawn.
• Early indications are that the overall range of 1 to 29999 is used by the Province of Nova Scotia, including the RCMP, which is principally contracted as the provincial police force for the province.   PNS also includes volunteer organizations that are funded or sponsored or promoted by the province, including volunteer fire departments, EMO, Red Cross, GSAR, etc.    This range also includes, at the very low end, the Bell techs who are supporting the introduction of the system and the provision and setup of individual radios.    There may be other commercial entities with liaison capabilities that are included in this provincial range.
• It is also clear that HRM has all of the 30000’s and at least a large part of the 40000’s, with its upper limit not yet known.
• As of the last update the highest numbers encountered are all below 50000.
• It is somewhat unclear as to the upper theoretical limit to the numbering system.  My investigations led me to believe that a P25 system could have a maximum of 65536 talk groups and millions of individual radios (actually 65536 x 256) but I have also been told that there can be many more TGID’s than the 65536 I have been assuming, and I do invite any comments regarding limits in TMR2.
• The size of the ID range varies with the size of an agency’s radio inventory, and with the particular organizational structure of their numbering.    The largest range so far encountered is 10000 for Halifax Fire (30000 – 39999).   Some small agencies appear to have assigned ranges of 100, which so far does seem to be the smallest assignment, even if the agency has only a couple of radios and one talk group.    With all agencies it does appear that the range assigned is considerably more than present needs.  This does allow for future expansion and perhaps non-reuse of radio id’s as units are replaced; however it is just as significant that the system is made to be “neat”.   By this I mean that each agency range begins with a nice round number.   For example if it had been determined that in actual need EHS only needed a range of 1676 numbers, and on that basis could be given the range 3000 to 4675, you will find that this has not happened.   Instead the range goes beyond, so that the next agency, in this case TIR, will commence with the “neat and tidy” 5000, instead of 4676.
• TGID’s begin at the low end of the range.   For some agencies the lowest TGID seems to be one ending in the digit “1”, such as in EHS at 3001, and the VFD group at 12001.  In other agencies it seems that the start is with zero, such as HR Fire at 30000 and NS Corrections at 1700.
• At this point the most talk groups that any agency has is the VFD organization which at present has TGID’s 12001 to 12076.    Due to the apparent “fact” that talk group series begin at xx00 or xx01 and no one has anything even approaching 100 talk groups,  I think it reasonable to say that whenever you see a TGID ending in 00 or 01, that is a different agency than whatever lies below.  For example when I saw TG 2400 first appear my basic assumption was that this was a new agency, different from whoever was using the 2300’s or the 2500’s
• In most cases there are more radios than talk groups, and therefore only small parts of each range are used for TGID’s.  In the case of EHS that has 3000 to 4999, the highest TGID so far encountered is 3071, so there are for the time being at least, 1928 unused talk group ID slots available to EHS.
• RID’s can, on the other hand, conceivably span the complete assigned range, not because there are that many radios, but because in some cases the radios are numbered in sub-ranges according to type or purpose.   Commonly this seems to be a simple split between portable radios and mobile installed radios (also including base radios, if any).   In the PNS structure It does seem to be a general convention that the mobile radios will be numbered in the lower half of the total number range, and the portables in the upper half.    In the EHS example this means that the truck radios and base radios are numbered in the range 3000 to 3999, and the portables in the range 4000 to 4999.   The HRM agencies seem to be doing it the other way around, and there may be other methods that I have not yet discerned.
• Now that I have made it seem that agencies must use the same range for TGID’s and UID’s, I should point out one glaring exception.   It does seem that the Sheriff Department uses talk groups in the 1000 range but radio id’s in the 20000 range, as detailed in the chart below.   Why this is, I have no idea.
• There are other situations that might be clarified.   In many cases an agency can and will use a talk group that belongs to “somebody else”.    The most obvious situation is the use of the interoperability talk groups in the 500 range.  These might be considered to belong to the province as a whole, or perhaps PSFC in particular, but all other agencies have at least some of them in their radios.   Similarly, there are several smaller PNS agencies that use the Shubie Radio general dispatch talk group 20000 even though they have their own small ranges of talk groups for their internal use.  
• There are not necessarily both talk groups and radio id’s utilizing a range.  This is already perhaps clear in the case of the Sheriffs Department.   For the 1000’s range that they use for talk groups, the same range is used by Dispatch Consoles belonging to various agencies.   The interoperability talk group range in the 500’s does not have a corresponding set of radios in the same range, as radios, unlike these talk groups, have to belong to “somebody”.

In most cases for any particular agency, there are two sub-ranges of radio id’s with the bottom or lower half being mobiles and bases, and the upper half being portables.   Some variations on that generality are noted below:

*PSFC radios:   These radios appear to be numbered in several series.   Those beginning at 700 are most likely the radios installed in the official vehicles and in staff personal vehicles or are base radios. Beginning at 850 are portables used by staff. There is also a series of radio id’s in the 900’s, one of which was referred to on the air as an Event Portable.  Event Portables are those that are carried by the MCS trucks and distributed during major events.  Several of these have been heard in use for general communications by staff but I am assuming they will eventually be placed in the two trucks.   It is also assumed that there will be yet another series for the radios to be installed at each of the provincially-owned radio sites (only a few of which are TMR2 sites).

*HRFE radios:   It seems that there are several subranges of radio ID’s.   So far this is what I have seen:   

• 30000 – 30199 are portables assigned to personnel not part of a station crew, such as headquarters, division chiefs, fire prevention etc.   So far I have not noticed any assignment system for these.
• 30200 to 36999 are portables mostly associated with particular apparatus, as a set.   Digits 2 and 3 are the station number.  Digit 4 is the apparatus type, with 1 being an engine, and 2 being an Alpha engine (2^nd engine manned by volunteers in a composite station).   I am not sure what 3 and up refer to, but a pattern will emerge over time.  Digit 5 is the number of the particular portable in the set that goes with the particular apparatus.  Number 1 is the driver’s portable.  Number 2 is the officer’s or right hand seat.  The numbers 3 and up are the remainder, used by the other firefighters if any.   If digit 4 is a zero, this is not assigned to a particular apparatus but is instead the station chief’s portable.  For example 34512 is Engine 45 officer’s portable.   34501 is the Chief’s portable.    You will have perhaps realized two things.   There will not be radios in this range that match closed stations, so for example you will not see a 32713, as there is no Station 27, nor are there presently going to be any numbered 36600 and onwards to the upper limit of this range.    The other point of interest is that this numbering system yields a tremendous number of gaps other than resulting from there not being a particular numbered station.    For example, to use the Station 45 example again, there is a 34501, a set of 3451x (for Engine 45) and a couple of other series for other apparatus at the station.   But notice that if for example there are 6 radios in Engine 45, this means that after 34516, there are no other radios in the 3451x range, nor are there any in the range that could in theory be used for apparatus they do not have.   Let’s say that there is only the one engine at Station 45.  This means that the series from 34520 to 34599 will be blank.    This lack of use of 80 Radio ID’s might be considered very wasteful, but on the other hand there can be millions of these ID’s in much higher ranges, so this may not be a problem.
• 37000 to ???     These are the truck-mounted mobile radios.  At the time of the last update more than a hundred had been detected with the highest being 37215.  Overall it does seem that the pattern goes by station number but Station 2, the lowest numbered station, does not start at 37000. 2 Engine has 37029, and basically things go up from there with 3 Station's apparatus, then 4 and so on but so far it does not seem perfect.  A few below 37029 have been heard, and they have all been officer trucks, such as Division 6 having 37021. 
• 38000 to ???     It is not known exactly where this series begins and ends.   I have detected 62 numbers in the range 38201 to 38540.  The nature of these radios is not known as I have not actually heard any of them on the air.  It is possible that this and/or the next group are the vehicle repeaters.
• 39000 to 39999    The exact range is not really known so I am guessing.   I have detected 59 radios in the range 39903 to 39963 so far, but have not actually heard any of them in use.

* HRP radios.   Due to encryption these radios cannot be heard in normal circumstances.   Several comments heard in the clear on TMR1 but referring to TMR2 radios, have led me to believe that the lower numbered range of radios are the portables, with the mobiles being the ones numbered from 40700 and up.    Once migration is complete these radios will not be heard except in the rare instance of being on an interoperability talk group.

* RCMP radios.   Similarly to HRP, these radios are not heard on TMR2 due to encryption.  Any information shown comes from the simulcasting or bridging occurring during the migration, in that a car can be heard on TMR1 but its TMR2 radio id will show up simultaneously on the Pro96Com screen, if that radio is on TMR2.   Just as fpr HRP, these radios will normally not be heard, but there is a greater likelihood of hearing them occasionally on the interoperability channels, as compared to HRP.